Trustees behaving badly: has the sector set us up to fail?
Podcast transcript
Transcript: Trustees behaving badly: has the sector set us up to fail?
Podcast description
Most Trustees join charity Boards with good intentions. Yet poor Trustee behaviour is one of the most common frustrations faced by charity leaders, fellow Trustees and Boards. Is it something about our sector is it the charity structure itself that is the problem?
This episode explores why it is that there are so many examples of Trustees behaving badly, and we examine why this is so, and what can be done about it.
Today we speak with Mary-Ann Ochota, a Trustee who found herself facing an impossible governance situation, Penny Wilson, governance consultant, trainer and former CEO of Getting on Board, and Dr Vidya Sukumara Panicker, Senior Lecturer at Loughborough University whose research explores trustee skills, governance and Board effectiveness in charities…. Together, they examine why Trustees behave badly, what sits behind poor governance behaviour, and whether some of the sector’s structures are inadvertently creating the conditions for failure.
“You feel like you’re losing your mind a little bit…Other trustees would email me afterwards and say – ooh that was quite bruising, are you ok? And I’d be like – no, not really, but also, why didn’t you say something in the meeting? Because if you’d said something there and then, the conversation wouldn’t have been shut down… The bit where I’m Spartacus, you need to get off your chair and say I’m Spartacus too, otherwise one person just gets nobbled”
Mary-Ann Ochota
“I think most big governance issues could have been nipped in the bud a lot earlier. I don’t think trustees are brave enough….
We treat trustees differently because they’re volunteers. We think we can’t possibly expect that of them, or we can’t possibly tell them that that isn’t appropriate because they’re volunteering their time. And I think that’s really misguided.”Penny Wilson
“Sometimes trustees become too engaged with the operational aspects and they try to manage rather than govern. Some others become distant and disengaged — and these are both problematic situations.”
Vidya Panicker
Our hosts
Felicia Willow
Also known as the Mary Poppins of the Charity Sector, is a seasoned interim CEO and consultant in the Charity Sector, working primarily on strategy, governance, crisis and effectiveness. Her leadership roles include the Fawcett Society and the Shannon Trust. A lawyer by training, Felicia’s career has spanned government, UN and the UK charity sector (the ‘For Impact’ sector) and she finds herself increasingly focussed on discussing and challenging the systemic issues that are holding the sector back.
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Chris Pitt
Chris Pitt is responsible for positive social and environmental impact at Benefact Group, a family of specialist financial services businesses owned by a charitable Trust. The Group is the 3rd largest corporate giver to charity1 and Chris oversees over £2m of giving, namely through the Movement for Good awards which give small donations to a huge diversity of causes and large grants to charities close to the customers and communities of the Group.
1 DSC – The guide to UK Company Giving 2023-24
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Our guests
Dr. Vidya Panicker
Associate Professor
Dr. Vidya Panicker is a research-active academic based in Loughborough Business School, Loughborough University. Her expertise spans leadership and governance, international business, strategic and financial management, and organisational performance, with a particular focus on charities and non-traditional sectors.
Vidya is currently leading a British Academy of Management-funded charity skills project that explores how small charities in the UK can strengthen their capabilities, resilience, and long-term sustainability. Through this work, she collaborates with charity leaders and practitioners to better understand skills demands, develop evidence-informed insights, and contribute to ongoing conversations about supporting organisations in an increasingly complex operating environment. Her research is driven by a commitment to producing work that is both academically rigorous and practically relevant.
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Mary-Ann Ochota
Broadcaster, Trustee, Chair, Strategic Advisor
Mary-Ann is a broadcaster, anthropologist and advisor to organisations working across nature, place and people. Mary-Ann is the Independent Chair of the Protected Landscapes Partnership, working with National Landscapes, National Parks, National Trails. She’s also President of CPRE, the Campaign to Protect Rural England, and independent advisor to a number of campaigning groups and public sector departments. She served as a director and trustee of the John Muir Trust from 2022. She resigned in 2023
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Penny Wilson
Charity Consultant
Penny is an inclusive charity governance consultant. She writes articles about trustees which are full of bad jokes, including a regular column for Governance & Leadership magazine. Penny serves as Director of The Festival of Trusteeship for Eastside People, and helps charity networks strengthen trustee support through training, guidance and research. As well as working directly with thousands of trustees each year, Penny has been a trustee of several organisations, and is now a trustee of London Plus. Penny thinks charity governance is exciting. That might make her a nerd, or might mean that everyone else is wrong. She’s willing to accept both possibilities. You can connect with Penny on LinkedIn here.
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